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3 Minor (Key) Problems

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View the msg source Started by Steve Allen on 2000-05-08
Three related questions:

1. I have a piece in Gm, NWC insists on displaying Gb's when I want F#'s. Is there any way to globally change the Gb's to F#'s? It's a lot of work to change each occurance individually! Perhaps some combination of steps involving force accidentals, transpose 0 and audit accidentals?

2. A piece in F#m, NWC insists on displaying F naturals when I want E#'s. Is there a clever fix?

3. A piece in C#m, NWC insists on displaying C naturals when I want B#'s. Is there a clever fix?

View the reply source  Reply 1 by Barry Graham on 2000-05-08
You forgot Dm with a Db leading note!

View the reply source  Reply 2 by Steve Allen on 2000-05-08
I left out Dm deliberately because there is a fix:

1) Highlight the Dm key signature and keep it highlighted -- you'll change it twice.
2) force accidentals,
3) change key signature to G (major)
4) transpose 0 steps,
5) Force accidentals
6) change the key signature to Dm,
7) Audit accidentals

Of course other accidentals may be altered by this procedure, but the C#'s will come out OK.

I posted this message hoping to uncover a Dm-style fix for Gm, C#m, and F#m.

Here's a fix for Gm that, it seems to me, should work but doesn't:
1) change key signature to the user defined key signature Bb, Eb, F#.
2) Transpose 0, This should (but doesn't) turn Gb's to F#'s.
3) Force accidentals.
4) Change key signature to Gm.
5) Audit accidentals.

Variants of this fix *should* work in minor keys that don't involve double sharps. (They would work in minor keys with double sharps if user defined keys could include double sharps.)

Now that I think about it, if transpose 0 worked in this fashion, I might be able to globally change any accidental to its enharmonic equivalent using a similar procedure. Example: a Dm piece with a bunch of Ab's that I wish were displayed as G#s, including one particularly ugly passage that reads (using n for a natural, b for a flat) A bA nA bA nA. Proposed solution:

1) change key signature to the user defined key signature Bb, C#, G#.
2) Transpose 0. This should turn Ab's to G#'s.
3) Force accidentals.
4) Change key signature back to Dm.
5) Audit accidentals.

All Ab's are now G#'s.

Could I be on to something here?

Steve

View the reply source  Reply 3 by Barry Graham on 2000-05-09
I hope so - but should these workarounds be necessary?

View the reply source  Reply 4 by dopey on 2000-05-09
Okay there's probably something I missed but I imported a piece written in Bb.

I add the key signature for Bb yet all the As are still all sharps. (#)

What I do?

View the reply source  Reply 5 by dopey on 2000-05-09
ok, I must give you some more info.

I imported the melody line only because I added chords above the line with the text feature.

The melody uses some accidentals.

What I'm asking is, how can I force a key change so it summarises the notes, ie. turns A# into Bb when I add key signature Bb?

View the reply source  Reply 6 by Barry Graham on 2000-05-09
This is probably more steps than you need - but if I'm wrong someone will correct me.

1. TOOLS > FORCE ACCIDENTALS
2. TOOLS > TRANSPOSE STAFF Set transposition to 0 zero - OK
3. TOOLS > AUDIT ACCIDENTALS

You may not need step 3.

View the reply source  Reply 7 by Fred Nachbaur on 2000-05-09
Steve - here's something to add to your bag of tricks: use the custom key signature option. For example, in Gm, change to a custom key sig containing Bb, Eb and F#. Then do the usual transpose 0, force accidentals, change to a standard Gm key sig, and audit accidentals.

View the reply source  Reply 8 by Steve Allen on 2000-05-09
Fred: try the sequence you describe with a Gm piece that contains a few Gb's. It won't transform the Gb's to the desired F#'s.

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Added thoughts regarding minor keys:

Here's a more complete analysis of NWC's minor scale difficulties. I'll use the letter n to denote naturals and ## to denote double sharps. The potential problems concern the 6th and 7th degrees of each scale.

Cm defaults to An and Bn -- OK
C#m defaults to A# (OK) and Cn (should be B#)
Dm defaults to Bn (OK) and Db (should be C#)
D#m defaults to Cn (should be B#) and Dn (should be C##)
Ebm defaults to Cn and Dn -- OK
Em defaults to C# and D# -- OK
Fm defaults to Dn and En -- OK
F#m defaults to D# (OK) and Fn (should be E#)
Gm defaults to En (OK) and Gb (should be F#)
G#m defaults to Fn (should be E#) and G (should be F##)
Abm defaults to Fn and Gn -- OK
Am defaults to F# and G# -- OK
A#m defaults to Gn (should be F##) and An (should be G##)
Bbm defaults to Gn and An -- OK
Bm defaults to G# and A# -- OK

(To review these problems yourself, enter a Cm melodic scale with an Cm key signature and successively transpose it up by half steps. When you get to D#m force accidentals, switch the key signature from D#m to Ebm, and transpose 0 steps. Same for G#m and A#m.) Thus, ignoring the accidental-heavy keys, one should avoid Gm, C#m, and F#m when using NWC. If you use these keys, be prepared to do a lot of fixing. All are common keys so this is a significant problem.

It appears that NWC defaults to C over B#, F over E#, and naturals over double sharps, no matter what the key signature. Since NWC also chooses flats to display accidentals in flat keys, we get the Dm and Gm problems. Interestingly, I checked each of the problem scales in Cakewalk Express (a budget sequencer with limited notation capabilities) and it displayed every scale perfectly, double sharps and all.

View the reply source  Reply 9 by Steve Allen on 2000-05-11
Given NWC's minor-key shortcomings, what's the best fix? Let's explore the possibilites by means of an example. Suppose F natural occurs in a piece with an A major (3 sharp) key signature, do I want NWC to display F natural or E#? It of course depends upon context and we can't reasonably expect NWC to know that. In addition, some people are uncomfortable with E#'s, they prefer F naturals even when E#'s are technically correct. It seems to me that there are several possible solutions.

(1) Provide a search and replace (S&R) command that can, say, change all occurances of F5 to E#5 in a group of selected notes or chords. Follow that S&R command with an AuditAccidentals command and you'll clear out any unnecessary F#'s that remain -- as might occur if F# alternated with F natural several times. If the highlighted area contains chords in which a requested replacement is impossible, NWC could highlight the offending chord, report "Can't change the selected item" and stop. (Or perhaps issue a warning similar to those transpose staff periodically issues.)

(2) NWC could make a distinction between major keys and their relative minors. If the relative minor is specified, NWC defaults to the accidentals likely to occur in that minor key. Example continued: if F# minor is specified, NWC defaults to E#. If A major is specified NWC defaults to F natural. Perhaps NWC could display in non-printing text "F#m" or "A" below a 3 sharp key signature to indicate which key has been defined.

(3) Enhance NWC so a zero-semitone TransposeStaff command works with user-defined key signatures as it now works with standard key signatures. (I'm inclined to say that TransposeStaff should have worked this way in the first place.) Continuing the example: To get E#'s in our piece, (a) force accidentals, (b) define the key signature F#, C#, G#, E# (A major + E#), (c) transpose 0, which changes the F naturals to E#'s, (d) force accidentals, (e) restore the original A key signature, and (f) audit accidentals. All those F naturals are now E#'s. If this sounds involved, remember that it's much easier than separately changing a bunch of F naturals to E#'s, particularly if F naturals occur in chords. If you want F naturals in one part of a piece and and E#'s in another, then bound the change area with an A major key signature. F's beyond that key signature won't be touched.

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