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Author Topic: Transposing Horn in F to Alto Saxophone  (Read 20529 times)
badbeeker
Dormant NWC2 User
« on: 2006-11-06 02:23 PM »

I'm trying to transpose some music from a Horn in F to a Eb Alto Sax.  As a test, I'm trying to transpose White Christmas. The sax part has horn queue notes  which I'm trying to match to the horn part itself with no luck.  When I transpose the section in question, I can get the notes looking right but the key is off.

I've tried transposing other music from the same horn in F before but it seemed that when I played the transposed music on my sax it was off anywhere from a half step to 2 steps.  What am I doing wrong?  I've used the post in the forums that explains how to transpose woodwind instruments, an Alto sax is -9 and a Horn in F is -7.  So when I need to transpose music for it, I transpose to a -2 correct?

I tried to transpose the horn part for the music that the sax has queues for I can't seem to get the right notes to appear along with the correct key.

The horn piece is in the key of G major.  The sax is in the key of A major.  Could someone give me some steps on how to do this properly?  I cant seem to get it right.

I've also seen a post about transposing non C instruments but I'm unsure how to do this correctly.

Any help would be much apprieciated.
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Lawrie Pardy
Virtuoso


« Reply #1 on: 2006-11-06 05:00 PM »

G'day Badbeeker,
I'm no expert on Horn - I've never quite come to grips with some of the old conventions associated with writing for this instrument which are due to historical factors - and changes - but here's what I think...

If the part is a transposed part, then a Horn in F would sound 7 semitones below what is written, your Alto Sax is sounding 9 semitones below, so to transpose a Horn part to an Alto Sax part I think you need to transpost UP 2 semitones, that is +2, NOT -2 semitones.  Of course, you need to keep the "Update staff playback transposition" option ticked.

The reason for this is that you are wanting the music to read 9 semitones higher than it sounds, the Horn part would be only 7...

If the part is a non-transposed part, then it is written as if it were at concert pitch (I think - this is where it starts to become confusing for me) and you need to transpose UP 9 semitones (+9) - again, we need to raise the pitch of the written part so your Sax will sound right 'cos it sounds 9 semitones below what's written.

The next consideration is clef...  If the Horn part is written in bass clef then you also need to change it to treble clef.

There are several techniques for this, but one way would be to:
  • Highlight the whole staff
  • <Ctrl-Shift-DownArrow> 12 times
  • Change the clef to treble

This will keep it sounding the same (maybe).  As near as I can gather, due to some confusion over conventions, you may be an octave low.  If necessary shift the octave to suit the range of your instrument (<Ctrl-Shift-UpArrow or DownArrow> 7 times), but only after the other steps are completed...

I hope I've got this right, you feedback would be most welcome.

Also, I hope this is of some help.
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Ewan Harwood
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #2 on: 2006-11-06 05:59 PM »

... The sax part has horn queue notes  which I'm trying to match to the horn part itself with no luck. ...
The cue notes on the sax part will be in the saxophone's transposition - not the horn's.  This would be why you can't find a match.  Instead, look for the sax notes but one note lower.  Do you have bar numbers or rehearsal letters?  If all else fails, you can count bars from the beginning.

What Lawrie says - + 2 semitones - is correct.  You can check at the end:  Your alto sax key signature should have two more sharps than your horn key signature (or two fewer flats).
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #3 on: 2006-11-06 09:35 PM »

I am actually writing to agree with the previous responders, but thought perhaps this might help a bit too.

1./ There's a whole tone between Bb and C (the keys for the clarinet, which transposes, and the oboe, which doesn't).  To transpose the oboe part for a clarinet player, you would transpose +2 semitones.  A key signature of Bb becomes C, a key signature of A major becomes B major, and F major becomes G.  So you end up either removing 2 flats or adding 2 sharps, or something in between.

2./ There's also a whole tone between Eb (alto sax) and F (french horn) .  Since it's the same relationship as between clarinet and oboe, the same  transposition of +2 semitones is needed to convert the horn part to the sax.  The horn's notes should be written a perfect 5th above concert pitch.

This sort of reminds me of my algebra from 40 some odd years ago.   Next is what I'm actually contributing  to the discussion:

3./ As long as your music always has a key signature, even if it's a C major key signature that's entered, you can check the transposition by looking to see if the new key signature has two more sharps or two less flats than the original key signature.

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badbeeker
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #4 on: 2006-11-07 12:03 AM »

Ok, so if I'm converting a horn in F to Eb sax, I go +2 semitones?  So did I just do it backwards or something?  Isn't an Horn in F a -7 and a Eb sax -9? so to get to a -9 wouldn't I go down 2 semitones?

So I am transposing HORN in F "A Festival of Carols" to Eb Sax.  The Key signature is F Major.  I did what you guys said and transposed it up 2 semitones with "Update Staff Playback Position" ticked.  The result was the notes being a whole step up and the key was turned into G Major.  Is this the right result?

I'm still not sure why I would go up instead of down.. I'm kind of dumb when it comes to transposing, haven't done it before by hand and unsure of the whole process (which is why I'm using Noteworthy).  The horn part is in the treble so I didn't have to worry about bringing it up an octave.

So basically, If I have a Horn in F part that I want to transpose to Alto Sax, I transpose UP 2 semitones correct?

I really appreciate all your help guys =)
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #5 on: 2006-11-07 04:28 AM »

Quote
So I am transposing HORN in F "A Festival of Carols" to Eb Sax.  The Key signature is F Major.  I did what you guys said and transposed it up 2 semitones with "Update Staff Playback Position" ticked.  The result was the notes being a whole step up and the key was turned into G Major.  Is this the right result?

Yes.

Quote
I'm still not sure why I would go up instead of down..

Think of an extension ladder with ten steps on each half.  The distance between each step is equivalent to a semi-tone. 

The extension ladder has a back part that doesn't move, and a front part that slides up and down.  Paint the ninth step of the part that doesn't move green. 

Now paint the bottom rung of the moving part blue, the third rung yellow and the ninth rung red.  The red step represents the note that will be written on the page to get the sound equal to the green step.

A flute, oboe or  piano would play the note written without the ladder being extended at all.  They're non-transposing instruments.

However, the french horn is pitched 7 semitones below what is written.  If it plays the green note as written, you'll actually hear the yellow note.  So you have to move the yellow step up 7 positions, until it matches the green step.  Your red step is now extended seven steps above the green.  That's the note you have to write to hear the green pitch.

Now you have another, identical ladder.  If the alto sax plays the green note as written, you hear the pitch represented by the blue step.  It has to be moved up nine positions (9 semitones) to be the equivalent of the green note.  And your red step on this ladder is two positions higher than on the first ladder. 

It's getting late and I'm falling asleep as I type.  I hope my analogy makes some sense?

Quote
I'm kind of dumb when it comes to transposing

It's a matter of "grokking" it.  It will sink in, even though it's hard to explain.  It is not intuitive because you're not changing the key of the piece as you might do to find the right key for your star vocalist.  What you're changing is how to rewrite the piece so you will hear it in the same key and pitch it started out with, even though it will be played on a transposing instrument.

Quote
unsure of the whole process
Maybe the ladder analogy and my earlier reasonableness test using the key signature will be helpful.  Have fun.

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Richard Woodroffe
Virtuoso


« Reply #6 on: 2006-11-07 05:10 AM »

You would have a laugh if you saw me at work with two bits of paper and several highlighters representing your ladders. LOL.

This it explains it well until everyone starts asking what on earth I'm doing and I really can't justify the time to explain how bits of coloured paper, ladders and transposing instruments relate to the bit of software I'm supposed to be working on.

Have to wait until I get home I guess. I suppose my wife will ask why I'm painting the rungs :)

Thanks David - I like the analogy.
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Rich.
Lawrie Pardy
Virtuoso


« Reply #7 on: 2006-11-07 06:38 AM »

G'day badbeeker,
I know others have already confirmed, but perhaps I can clarify a little more...

Ok, so if I'm converting a horn in F to Eb sax, I go +2 semitones?  So did I just do it backwards or something?  Isn't an Horn in F a -7 and a Eb sax -9? so to get to a -9 wouldn't I go down 2 semitones?

Yes, +2 semitones.  Let me see if I can explain why...

On your Alto, if you see a middle "C" (first ledger line below the treble staff) and play it, it will sound 9 semitones lower than if your friend played a middle "C" on a piano.  To fix this so you can play along with your friend you need to transpose the written notes up 9 semitones.

Now when you play the note on your transposed part it's no longer a written middle "C", but a written second space "A" and the key signature has had 3 sharps added.  So you play second space "A", your friend plays middle "C" and you both sound the same.

For a Horn in "F", the process is the same except that the Hornist needs music that is transposed up 7 semitones so the Hornist will see and play a second line "G" with only 1 sharp added to the key signature.  Your friend on the piano plays middle "C", you play second space "A" and our hornist plays second line "G" and you all sound the same.

The confusion comes in when you need a "playback transposition" for MIDI.  MIDI only understands "concert pitch", just like your friends' piano.  So if you send a command to MIDI to play a second line "A" from a transposed alto sax part then MIDI has to be told to play the note 9 semitones lower (or -9 semitones) than the written note so that MIDI will play a concert pitch middle "C".  Ditto for the Horn except we're now talking 7 semitones...

So if the Horn is 7 semitones lower than concert pitch and the alto sax is 9 semitones lower than concert pitch, in order for a horn part to be transposed for an alto sax the written music must be raised 2 semitones because the alto sax sounds 2 semitones lower than the horn.

Quote
So I am transposing HORN in F "A Festival of Carols" to Eb Sax.  The Key signature is F Major.  I did what you guys said and transposed it up 2 semitones with "Update Staff Playback Position" ticked.  The result was the notes being a whole step up and the key was turned into G Major.  Is this the right result?

Yes

Quote
I'm still not sure why I would go up instead of down.. I'm kind of dumb when it comes to transposing, haven't done it before by hand and unsure of the whole process (which is why I'm using Noteworthy).  The horn part is in the treble so I didn't have to worry about bringing it up an octave.

Hopefully the above explanation has helped...

Quote
So basically, If I have a Horn in F part that I want to transpose to Alto Sax, I transpose UP 2 semitones correct?

Yes again :)
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fitzclan
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #8 on: 2006-11-07 08:42 AM »

Pianist, Flautist, Trombonist, Violinist.... Hornist? Fascinating! I guess it beats Hornblower, to which Bilbo Baggins might even agree.
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badbeeker
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #9 on: 2006-11-09 12:39 PM »

Sorry for the late reply guys, work has had me bogged down.

Think of an extension ladder with ten steps on each half.  The distance between each step is equivalent to a semi-tone....

Wow, that's one awesome analogy!  I had to read it a few times to make it sink in correctly, but between you two, David and Lawrie, I think I can get this down and understand why it's up 2 instead of down 2.  I have practice tonight and will try out this new transposition.  I have got to say the key signature looks a lot easier than my first couple of transpositions I did where I ended up with 4 flats *YIKES*.

Now that I have this down it will be fairly easy to transpose other instruments to my alto sax =)  Though don't be surprised if I ask for help again as I'm sure it will take a little more time and convincing that I transposed correctly.

Again, I owe you guys big time as I'm not able to play most of the pieces in our orchestra because they don't have a saxophone part.  This allows me to at least play something hehe.
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #10 on: 2006-11-09 09:34 PM »

Glad it's sinking in.  That's sort of what happens to my ladder when I use it.  So my wife cleans the gutters while I hold the ladder.  The analogy popped into my mind because we had just done that.

I should have used a 12 step ladder, though, since there are 12 semitones to an octave.  Sorry about that.

One of the oddities you'll find, badbeeker, is that players of lower brass players read bass clef and their parts are generally not transposed, except perhaps by perfect octaves.  Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but a BBb tuba, the double-B flat refers to its lowest, or fundamental note, Bb below the bass clef, untransposed (or maybe an octave below that?) 

On the other hand, a Bb bass clarinet (my favourite instrument) does transpose up a tone then down an octave, the same as a Bb tenor sax.  While the lowest note on the tenor sax is a written Bb, on my bass clarinet, it's a written Eb.  There is also a variation, bass clarinets with longer bells that go down to written C (concert Bb). 

You may have heard of C melody saxes.  They were all the rage in the 1920s because they weren't transposing instruments.  You would read straight off a piano or vocal part.  These faded out of favour because they didn't play in tune very well.

I have an inexpensive alto that I play regularly, and I have modern and vintage tenors.  I prefer it to my alto, because I can get such a variety of sounds from it.  My newer tenor is a good Yamaha, but I just bought a 1936 Conn Naked Lady from a friend, and it's tone is much fuller and rounder.  But it weighs more.

Here's a notation and transposition challenge for you that might help you understand the process: 
  • Print out this handwritten chart for clarinet http://pubcs.free.fr/mw_perdido.PDF - it's written for a Bb instrument. 
    Copy a couple of lines note by note into Noteworthy. 
    Then insert a C major key signature after the 4/4 at the beginning. 
    Now transpose it down an octave.  Do not select the update playback feature.  Check the key signature - it should be the same.
    Next, transpose it down 2 semitones. The key signature should now read Bb major and when you play it back, it will be in concert pitch. 
    Save this file as TransposingExercise1.nwc
    Now, transpose the new staff for alto sax (that's +9 semitones) and update the playback.
    The key signature should be G major. 
    Save the file once again, using SaveAs, TransposingExercise2.nwc
    Print TransposingExercise2.nwc and close it. 
    Reopen TransposingExercise1.nwc
    Play the TransposingExercise2 chart along with the playback of TransposingExercise1.nwc.

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carlsson
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #11 on: 2006-11-12 04:04 PM »

On the other hand, a Bb bass clarinet (my favourite instrument) does transpose up a tone then down an octave,
Or for an even more mind-boggling example, the Bb contra-bass clarinet transposes one note up and then sounds two octaves below that. It is written in treble clef, but sounds at the very bottom of the bass clef. I suppose the same goes for Bb bass and Eb contra-bass saxophones, BBb tubax (saxophone-like instrument) and so on.

Regarding low brass, I think it depends on which type of orchestra it is; in a symphonic wind/concert band the bass parts are not transposed, but in a brass band, they would be transposed and written in treble clef like the low woodwind. I'm not sure there ever is a situation where you transpose a bass part and retain the bass clef, but I could be wrong. I don't know how eventual tubaists, trombones etc do in a symphony orchestra.
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #12 on: 2006-11-12 04:11 PM »

Quote
Regarding low brass, I think it depends on which type of orchestra it is; in a symphonic wind/concert band the bass parts are not transposed, but in a brass band, they would be transposed and written in treble clef

Concert band music usually has baritone treble clef and baritone bass clef parts (the baritone resembles the euphonium but they are not built identically).
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Ewan Harwood
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #13 on: 2006-11-12 04:41 PM »

... I'm not sure there ever is a situation where you transpose a bass part and retain the bass clef, but I could be wrong. ...
When horns switch to bass clef, they're still transposed.  (Search this site for discussion about details of the transposition.  It's not straightforward!)

In "olden times", bass clarinets used to read transposed bass clef (a tone transposition - just like ordinary clarinets).  But it's only older editions that still have these parts.

There's also the "claytons" transposition of exactly an octave for contrabass, contrabassoon, organ pedals, bass guitar, but only a completeist would insist that these were as valid.

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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #14 on: 2006-11-12 09:31 PM »

Hi Ewan

Fortunately, "olden times" are longer ago than I can remember.  I've run across bass clef only once in over 40 years playing bass clarinet in concert band (but then, maybe I lead a sheltered life). 

What a pain it was, because it was part of a suite, and IIRC, not all the movements were in bass clef.  The problem with these rarities is that you have to know what the composer's intent was - is it transposed up a tone, or up an octave and a tone?  Thanks to you, I now know.  I was guessing before.

Of course, it would REALLY help if I was comfortable reading bass clef.  I've never had to do so, except when using NWC to copy out parts for my Ellington band.
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Rob den Heijer
NWC2 User


« Reply #15 on: 2006-11-14 12:37 PM »

Ah. What did the one ladder say to the other ladder, on its answering machine?

--- You rung?
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Ewan Harwood
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #16 on: 2006-11-14 03:51 PM »

David, I'm surprised it happened even once in a concert band!  I was thinking of older un-modernised orchestra editions.  Your concert band piece must have been a very old edition indeed.

Hi Rob - haven't seen you for ages!  But it might be that I haven't been here as much, as you can tell by my whopping number of posts.
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #17 on: 2006-11-14 09:37 PM »

Umm, I think it's fair to say I was surprised, too, Ewan!

The piece isn't that old.  It's Four Cornish Dances for Concert Band by Malcolm Arnold, transcribed by Thad Marciniak, bearing copyright dates of 1968 and 1975, by Faber Music Ltd., printed in USA.

The first and third movements are in bass clef.  Movement 2 is in treble clef.  Movement 4 is mostly bass clef, except a few bars in treble.  The return to the bass clef is indicated by a miniscule bass clef sign, very easy to miss.  See the illustration attached.

Composers may write in concert pitch, but it is the copyist who is responsible for presenting the written part in a manner that it can be read by the player.  In my humble opinion, presenting music in this manner doesn't cut the mustard, and squeezing a tiny clef in is just silliness.

I do have another concern about this chart, too.  Bass clarinets come in two shapes.  They either go down to a written Eb (concert Db at one leger line and a space below the bass clef)  or, with a long bell, down to written C (concert Bb at two leger lines and a space below the b.c.).  The long bell instruments are fairly rare, partly because they are expensive, and partly because they are mechanically complicated, with some notes needing the right thumb.  Why write for an instrument that may not be available in most bands?

Not that I have an opinion...


* 4_cornish_dances_extract2.gif (120.07 KB, 584x552 - viewed 407 times.)
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Rick G.
Virtuoso
« Reply #18 on: 2006-11-14 10:31 PM »

... The return to the bass clef is indicated by a miniscule bass clef sign, very easy to miss.
... squeezing a tiny clef in is just silliness.
As a piano player, I find the bass clef adequate. 

The printer doesn't have good options.  I don't see where one could change the line breaks and improve the presentation. Better to turn the repeating 1/8 notes into dotted quarters and put an eighth flag through the stem.  That would yield lots of room for a proper clef change.
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Registered user since 1996
David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #19 on: 2006-11-15 03:28 AM »

Quote
As a piano player, I find the bass clef adequate. 

That's my point, Rick.  The bass clarinet player may well not be a piano player.  The transcriber is not considering the needs of those who will read the part.  Changing clefs is common in piano music, but is rare in single reed parts.  I can't think of a single single reed instrument that has parts normally written in the bass clef. 

In this example, there was no good reason not to just write those few bars in treble clef.  It's only within range of the low C bass clarinets, and would be written as a bracketed middle C with the intended note an octave below.  That would be a major ninth above the true sound, which is a concert Bb two octaves below middle C.

Bass clarinet players are used to reading 3 leger lines below the staff, or 4 if you have the bigger instrument. That's the range the instrument is designed for.  Sometimes leger land can be confusing, because the lines may run together, making it hard to see at a glance how far you are below the clef.  In that case, writing an octave up and using 8va basso is a better solution than changing clefs. 

Re the line break, I think I'd be tempted to break the staff one bar earlier, so the last bar of low C's would be on the next line.   If that creates problems later in the piece, I could live with reducing the horizontal space taken up on that next line with the multibar rest.


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Ewan Harwood
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #20 on: 2006-11-15 05:35 PM »

I've played that piece!  (But on bassoon, where I'll guarantee there were clef changes.)

It answers definitively what the transposition is:  The C below the bass staff must be for the "extended" instrument, and the alternate octave above for the "standard" instrument.  This means, that in bass clef, the transposition is only a major 2nd, not a major 9th.

I agree that staying in treble clef would have been better.  But I can't agree with Rick G. about using 8va basso.  Unlike keyboards, the fingering on woodwinds is different in different octaves,  Often the basic notes in lower registers are practically the same - notes with the main fingers up or down, with maybe an octave/speaker/whisper key - but the chromatic notes are much less often similar.  (The bassoon has four very different Eb fingerings.)  The clarinets are worst, as they overblow a perfect 12th, so there are no similar fingerings for an octave - at least in the first two registers!  For all woodwinds, the higher registers usually need an odd arangement of "buttons and levers" to help stabilise the particular harmonic, adjust the intonation etc, so the fingerings can be very inconsistent.  For bassoon (because I know it best!) the C major scale from middle C (for piano) to the C above has the intervals C-D, E-F and B-C' as the only ones were just a single finger is lifted.  All the rest have fingers going everywhere.  And in the same scale, only C and D are similar to the notes an octave below.  (For the C# major scale, there isn't a single easy interval for fingering, and only the first C# is similar the the octave below.)




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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #21 on: 2006-11-15 06:41 PM »

Hi Ewan,

I have to take responsibility for the 8va basso suggestion.  Your comment re the octave fingerings in the clarinet family is accurate, but that's not as much a mental adjustment as changing clefs.  At least 8va and 8va basso are in the "occasionally encountered" category, rather than "so rare as to have seen it only once in a lifetime."

I imagine your bassoon part was the same as the bass clarinet, since the bass clarinet part was marked "Bass Clarinet (Optional)."  That usually means the arranger didn't need the bass clarinet but realized the band might not have a bassoonist, so wrote its part out for bass clarinet.  Or just transposed it for b.c. to give the bass clarinetist something to do.

Bass clarinet parts are often quite boring, just duplicating what is done by the tubas.  Then you have composers who will write with the b.c. in mind, taking advantage of the texture of its sound.  Those guys either write playable parts, which can and should be challenging, or they write parts that are absolutely terrifying. 

Loved your comment re C# major.  At speed, starting that scale in the chalumeau register can be nasty on clarinet. 

If there's anything to be learned from this discussion, it's that when we are using NWC or NWC2 to notate
parts, it's good practice to err on the side of communicating clearly, and that means knowing who is going to be using the chart.  If necessary, speak with people who play the instrument.  Knowing what they're used to reading, and knowing the good finger combinations and the bad ones make such a difference. 


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Rick G.
Virtuoso
« Reply #22 on: 2006-11-15 08:12 PM »

If there's anything to be learned from this discussion, it's that when we are using NWC or NWC2 to notate
parts, it's good practice to err on the side of communicating clearly, and that means knowing who is going to be using the chart.  If necessary, speak with people who play the instrument.  Knowing what they're used to reading, and knowing the good finger combinations and the bad ones make such a difference. 

My wife usually enters the notes for her flute/piccolo parts.  I just clean up the way it prints.
It is amazing how many leger lines above the staff a flautist can read.

You are right about approaches for different instruments. 
I tell my wife: "5 flats is easy. If there's a black key further down the pipe, use it." 
She rolls her eyes.  ...
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Lawrie Pardy
Virtuoso


« Reply #23 on: 2006-11-15 08:19 PM »

G'day Rick,
My wife usually enters the notes for her flute/piccolo parts.  I just clean up the way it prints.
It is amazing how many leger lines above the staff a flautist can read.

You're not kidding!

Quote
You are right about approaches for different instruments. 
I tell my wife: "5 flats is easy. If there's a black key further down the pipe, use it." 
She rolls her eyes.  ...

I just read this to my wife (also a flautist) - she said "How cute" with that somewaht disdainful way she has sometimes - I thought it was funny ;)
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fitzclan
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #24 on: 2006-11-15 08:25 PM »

Your wife gets that distainful look too, huh?
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Lawrie Pardy
Virtuoso


« Reply #25 on: 2006-11-15 08:28 PM »

Your wife gets that distainful look too, huh?

Yup...

BTW, I still haven't managed to get enough others interested in performing "...Sacred Head..." - Philistines ;)

I'm working on it though...
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carlsson
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #26 on: 2006-11-16 04:44 AM »

In the concert band I'm playing in, the bass clarinetist more or less doesn't read a single note of bass clef. When required, I tend to transpose those Bassoon 2 parts to bass clarinet for her (maybe 1/3rd of my total NWC use!).

Sometimes, a good baritone saxophone player can adopt a bassoon or tuba part written in bass clef, but that is due to when transposing it into treble clef with regard to transposition, most of the notes end up in the same visual position, only with different accidentials.
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #27 on: 2006-11-16 07:44 PM »

Quote
Your wife gets that distainful look too, huh?

It's universal.

I was going to follow up on Carlsson's bassoon to bari sax comment, with nothing really important to add to what he said, but in preparing my illustration, I came across this interesting glitch:

Starting from here:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Copying it to a new staff, and converting to treble clef I correctly get this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-11
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-7
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Now, to transpose for bari sax, you have to go up 21 semi-tones, but you have to do it in 2 steps.  Whether I do 12 first and then 9, or 9 first and then 12, I get the attached error message. 

And if I "proceed with transpose," I get this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-29
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Something's fishy in Denmark! 








* Noteworthy_glitch.gif (7.89 KB, 439x112 - viewed 413 times.)
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Rick G.
Virtuoso
« Reply #28 on: 2006-11-16 09:43 PM »

Now, to transpose for bari sax, you have to go up 21 semi-tones
Must be your machine. I get:
Code:   [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Tried it NWC2 and 1.75b. No errors. Correct result (I think).

Instead of 2 tranpositions, why not take your bass clef, change it to treble, shift the notes down 5 instead of 12 and then transpose up 9? Clip #2 would be:
Code:   [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
« Last Edit: 2006-11-17 12:14 AM by Rick G. » Logged

Registered user since 1996
fitzclan
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #29 on: 2006-11-16 11:44 PM »

You two guys are like me and my brother. He's left-handed. If we were to pick up a couch and needed to move it thruough a  doorway, I would rotate the thing to the left, fighting him rotating it to the right every time. Only problem is... he's stronger than me. But there's always more than one way to skin a cat as they say.
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #30 on: 2006-11-17 02:49 AM »

Quote
You two guys are like me and my brother.

Actually, I am left handed (in fine motor skills only),Fitz...



Quote
Must be your machine
Yes.  I had been doing a lot of surfing, trying to track down that road carved into the side of a mountain that was said to be in Bolivia but is actually China.  At one point I probably had 15 or 20 IE6 sessions running, along with 5 or 10 other applications, including a couple of memory hoggers.  I think NWC2 malfunctioned on me because I needed to free up some memory.   It may have malfunctioned also because I confused it with too many transposition commands. 

I did do it on a new file,piano score template, though.  I entered the notes first in the bass clef on the lower staff, then copied that to the upper staff.  Then I changed the clef in the upper staff back to treble and tried to transpose down the octave. 

I probably undid it and redid a few times, with and without the Update Staff Playback toggle, before deciding I should do it properly by highlighting the notes and moving them down 12 steps.  That gave me the correct location for the now-treble-clef notes in concert pitch.  By that, I mean third space Eb in bass clef equals the Eb 3 leger lines and a space below the treble clef.

By now, I figure memory was very cluttered up, so that when I tried to do the transposition properly NWC2 was overloaded, and didn't recognize that a Bb transposed up an octave would still be a Bb.  When I forced it after the error message, it went the wrong direction for the wrong number of intervals.  I guess it's called accidental destruction level beta-testing.


Quote
I get: ... Correct result (I think).

Yes


Quote
Instead of 2 tranpositions, why not take your bass clef, change it to treble, shift the notes down 5 instead of 12 and then transpose up 9?...

Your way works fine for the printed score, but playback is an octave too high.  That may not be a concern if you don't use playback - not everyone needs it.


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carlsson
Dormant NWC2 User
« Reply #31 on: 2006-12-06 06:03 PM »

Probably nobody cares, but when I transpose a bass part to treble, I copy the staff into a system with treble clef, move it up two whole notes and then apply transposition; for Eb instruments -3, for Bb instruments +2. I would update the MIDI playback transposition to -9 (alto), -14 (tenor) or -21 (baritone sax).
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Rick G.
Virtuoso
« Reply #32 on: 2006-12-06 08:11 PM »

Probably nobody cares, but when I transpose a bass part to treble, ...
You really don't transpose to another Clef, you just shift all the notes and change the Clef.

I put a Middle C grace note at the beginning. and shift the notes until the grace note is Middle C for the Clef I want. Then I change the Clef. On paranoid days, I force accidentals but, it is not necessary. At least today, I think it is not ...
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Registered user since 1996
David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #33 on: 2006-12-07 04:46 AM »

Quote
when I transpose a bass part to treble, I copy the staff into a system with treble clef, move it up two whole notes and then apply transposition;

Hi Carlsson,

If it works, great, but I don't think it does.  Your treble clef note is two octaves above where it's supposed to be.


Quote
apply transposition; for Eb instruments -3
Starting from a concert pitch G in the key of G major, this gives you a transposed E in E major.  You should get a D and be in D major. I was wrong.

Quote
for Bb instruments +2
Yes, this gives the right key (A major) and the right nominal note (A), but you're still out two octaves.


Quote
update the MIDI playback transposition to -9 (alto), -14 (tenor) or -21 (baritone sax).
These numbers I would have agreed with if the written note was in the right octave.  It isn't.  For tenor sax, for instance, you'd transpose a bass clef top space G to a treble clef second space A.  Your method puts the A on the leger line above the treble clef. 

I think you're best off using the method that is (or was?) recommended in the Help menu.  Highlight all the notes and, holding the control key, tap the down arrow 12 times, then change the clef.  Once you've done this, then just use the transpose feature to do the entire transposition job, with "update playback."

It's much easier, once you get the hang of it, and very reliable.

« Last Edit: 2006-12-07 09:10 PM by David Palmquist » Logged
Barry Graham
Virtuoso
« Reply #34 on: 2006-12-07 07:36 PM »

Someone said:

Quote
apply transposition; for Eb instruments -3

Then David said:

Quote
Starting from a concert pitch G in the key of G major, this gives you a transposed E in E major.  You should get a D and be in D major.

?!?!?!?
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David Palmquist
Virtuoso


« Reply #35 on: 2006-12-07 09:08 PM »

Good call, Barry, I BLEW IT!!!!

I'm used to mentally checking the transposition of Bb instrument parts to Eb by visualizing the note as a key signature, and adding a sharp.  I forgot I was starting from a concert pitch note instead of a note already transposed for Bb.

E and E major are correct.  I think.


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